So I'm sitting around this morning, thinking about what a fuck-tard my division officer is. The fact that it's Saturday and my whole division is here with me might give you some clue why I'm thinking this. With this zero, we got the worst-case scenario: no experience and a god complex someone instilled in him in OCS. We haven't seen him in a few hours, which must mean the Eng is getting a particularly thorough hummer in the fan room.
But I digress.
I'm a firm believer that it’s not whining if you point out a problem AND propose one or more plausible solutions. With this in mind, I propose the following solution to the Ensign Issue:
Problem: The aristocratic tendencies among Navy brass led to a system whereby a four year degree somehow makes some sailors better leaders than others, thus deserving obsequiousness from their underlings. This is a severely outdated concept, as demonstrated by the fact that I have an EE degree, whereas my supposed better has one in oceanography. In fact, out of 14 people in my division, 8 of them have at least an AS. Furthermore, I can honestly state by direct observation that his deeper insight into how sea snails reproduce is of limited leadership value in the real world.
Solution: Eliminate the shortcut to leadership. Make everyone start off on the bottom (ala Starship Troopers – the book, not the movies) and advance through hard work. Here is my proposed rank structure; we can come up with better titles for them later:
1. Seaman Recruit. This is where everyone starts off on day one in boot camp. You remain an SR for exactly one year. At the end of the year, you either get promoted or you get shown the door. Consider this the “probationary” period, where it’s fairly easy to get rid of whiners and non-hackers.
2. Seaman. This rank forms the core labor force for the Navy, so there’s a lot of them. You can remain a seaman for as long as you want, but there’s a minimum time-in-rate of one year. During your period as a seaman, it’s expected you will complete your basic quals. After you make seaman, you can remain in the Navy until the 25 year point if you choose to.
3. Petty Officer. This is the lowest leadership rank, usually with 3 to 6 seaman working for them. Advancement from here on out is based on one composite score, based on evals, PRT scores, written test scores, etc. that’s in competition with all the other people going up for the same promotion. The idea is that no one area can make or break your chances for advancement. There is also mandatory leadership and technical training required once selected for advancement; the higher the rank, the more intense the training.
4. Senior Petty Officer. The senior petty officer is the basic LPO rank. The SPO has typically been in the Navy 5 or more years and is in charge of 3 – 4 petty officers and their teams. The SPO may be running a smaller division or may be one of a group of SPOs in a larger one.
5. Chief Petty Officer. In addition to the usual advancement requirements, the CPO must also have a two-year degree or equivalent in some discipline related to their rate. That means Ice Sculpture 101 is fine for cooks, but N/A for twidgets. A CPO may be running a large division, or may be acting as the department’s LCPO / DO. A CPO has been in the Navy about 8-10 years by now.
6. Lieutenant. Lt.’s typically act as department heads. There’s no need for the DO role, since the CPOs cover that.
7. Commander. Commanders are typically COs of smaller commands and may be department heads or XOs in larger ones. In addition to the other requirements, commanders must have completed a four year degree and advanced leadership / management training to be considered for promotion. Commanders have typically been in the navy for around 14 - 16 years by this point.
8. Captain. Captains are typically COs or XOs of larger commands. Most captains have been in around 20 years by now, and won’t get any higher. Only a select few move on to commodore. Retirement becomes mandatory after 25 years of service unless selected for advancement.
9. Commodores. Commodores are typically squadron COs, with authority over several commands. There are about 20 to 30 of them, total, and competition is fierce for any open billets. Commodores can remain in service up to 35 years, assuming they continue to meet all requirements.
10. Admiral. There are only a few admirals, and they are typically in charge of fleet-sized commands. Each admiral probably has around 5 commodores working for them. The typical admiral has at least 25 – 30 years in, and can remain in service for as long as they’re able to meet the requirements (especially the PRT).
That’s it – 10 total ranks, from seaman to admiral. Since all the schools (including college) are 100% paid for by the Navy, there’s no reason why you can’t fulfill your maximum potential if you apply yourself. With no “promote or die” requirements until your 25 year point, there’s also no incentive to promote people beyond their capabilities just to keep them around.
One additional thing – we do away with the terms “officer” and “enlisted”, since everyone is enlisted. Each rank can get it’s own mess and head, if there’s room, but we do away with saluting except as part of formal ceremonies. I think we’re going to have to keep calling people who outrank us “sir” and “ma’am”, but no more aristocratic BS like personal drivers or chefs.
Of course, there are probably problems with this system I haven’t foreseen; this is just what I think, and who the hell am I?
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30 comments:
The only problem I see is that the navy is so mired (maybe mired isn't a strong enough word) in tradition that it would never be tried.
Starting to sound like a LEAN Rank structure. Maybe you did learn something in that class after all
Hmmm, there on Saturday for no apparent reason? Do what I did, tell the LCPO that unless he could provide me with a valid reason (besides 'cause I said so) for sticking around, then I was outta there. Guess what? I was outta there.
Ah, liberty for the brave(s). Doesn't work when you're one of the chiefs.
Starting to sound like a LEAN Rank structure. Maybe you did learn something in that class after all
Hehehehehe
As a "personal chef" to an Admiral, I rather like the current system, but I'd be happy to help implement yours when I retire.
Cheers,
CS1(SS) Z
What experience qualifies a 17 year snipe to effectively drive, lead and fight a ship? Run a plant, yes. Drive a ship, no.
The job of a junior officer is to learn the entire ship as an integrated system, while (supposedly) learning leadership from their division CPO. I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't always happen that way, but there are valid reasons things are the way they are. If you have an Ensign who feels qualified to lord over a 10-14 year CPO, then he is a douche, and the entire training pipeline/wardroom/goat locker has failed this individual (and the people who work for him) on an epic level.
Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but the transition from CPO to lieutenant would typically happen at around the 10 - 12 year point, by which time the up-and-coming sailor has learned their rate, their ship, and naval leadership through hands-on experience. I would expect the navy to provide whatever additional training was necessary at this point as the CPO transitions to a more formal "officer" role; it can't be all that much, though, judging by the length of the OCS program.
It's a nice idea but like the first guy said, the USN is too heavily entrenched regarding tradition.
What I'd like to see is for us to get rid of the CWO ranks. E-7s thru E-9s pretty much do the same jobs as CWOs, or atleast they can. Plus you can always expand the LDO program where the CWO program left off. Last thing, Create an E-10 rate too. All CMCs and FMCs and the MCPON can be E-10s.
Is there a need for a CMC in this proposed rank structure? I doubt it.
It's a shame that upward mobility and ambition are assumed in the military. Not all men are cut out for leadership, and the fleet shows the effects of forcing people into positions for which they have little aptitude. The laughable lip service we call "leadership" training doesn't really help these people become successful, primarily because they have no interest in leadership. It is not what they want to do.
IMO, if you want to ride out your career as an E-4 pumping sans, you should be allowed to. Just don't expect an E-8's pay or retirement.
Well Dude, in my old eyes your idea seems to have some merit. After boot camp in 1959 I reported to a Destroyer out of San Diego. I was on the deck force of that ship for two years and then off to ET"A" School at Treasure Island. During that two years it came to me that every young man entering the Navy should serve his first two years on the deck force of a seagoing warship. After that two years they move on to specialized/advanced training.
YNC(SS) Retired (Now how did that rating change happen? That's another short story.)
Wow! You have really stepped your whining up to another level. I'm sure your division officer summarily decided that your whole division would be there saturday morning. Not that your chief had a say in it. If he was any kind of chief, he would make sure you understood why you were there. If you were any kind of technician, everything would be done on time, and the division officer wouldn't have to take such drastic action. So cut the green ensign some slack. I bet there was no maintenance or work that needed to be done while you were bitching in your precious blog.
Congratulations! Your 15 minutes worth of a juvenile attempt at restructuring the leadership of the Navy (one that was developed over 225 years of tradition in our country alone) further exposes you as a simpleminded complainer. Good job reading ONE book!
But keep on writing your blog. I do enjoy reading it. It gives me that much more insight into why some guys join the Navy, work hard, promote often and excel at their jobs and eventually retire happy with the service they provided their country, and why some guys never seem to get it, always bitch, walk around like the Navy owes them something, don't promote, don't succeed in the Navy, eventually get out, and then fail at life when the support structure they loved to hate suddenly disappears.
(1) We were there because our DO volunteered us to support RC div testing. Apparently they weren't manly enough to sling their own rubber, or something. The chief had no choice in the matter.
(2) I've read more than one book. Maybe as many as five.
(3) If you can order men to their deaths (as any JO can) you DON'T get a free ride. Not on my boat. You had better know how to lead, or you get both my feet in your ass.
Which is why we need to make everyone start out on the bottom and eliminate the aristocracy which has no place in a modern navy.
Yes, back when the "crew" were a bunch of non-educated field hands, there needed to be some division between officer and enlisted. But no longer.
Lots of "traditions" have gone away. Grog, keelhauling, segregation, the cat o' nine tails. Just because something's been around a while doesn't mean it's the optimum solution. It just means no one's bothered to come up with something better.
We have more Admirals than ships. Each with a support staff.
I can remember good people being forced out at ten for not making Second Class and our unit was the worse for losing these good folks.
Keep up the great work!
crap, i like it, but then who is going to cook my eggs the way I like them and drive me down to the docks. or for that matter, who is going to tweet for me when I want to twitter. Now salute me dammint and get me some truffles!
To the Anon poster of 0514, what an insufferable diggit you must be. Sorry to disappoint, but most of us six and out types do not "fail at life when the support structure they loved to hate suddenly disappears." Quite the opposite, actually.
As to your claim that a chief should "make sure you understood why you were there," WTF? If the chief had any balls, he would've told the JO, "Hell, no!" Instead, apparently, he grovelingly acquiesced. In the long run, that makes the clueless JO that much more so. And you bozos wonder why some of loved to hate the "order" of the Navy. Go figure.
See you on the outside.
Hell, I think I'd like working with you. You bitch, to be sure, but you usually provide a better way of doing things, which is a lot better than most.
I have a simple philosophy: Do the work, then go home. Whenever someone gets in the way of either of those things, we have a problem. Zeroes always seem to think there's something more to it, but there's not.
I recall the mess decks MAA in boot camp (GLAKES 1971). He was a very salty seaman with gold seaman stripes and 5 gold hash marks. When we asked our Company Commander about him he said that guy was a career seaman who would rather be at the helm of a battleship than keeping our lower than whale-shit butts in line at chow. Don't see those any more, and that's probably not a good thing.
As for the zeroes I've seen the full spectrum, from great leaders to sorry excuses for humans. It was very rare to find a CO who was mission and people oriented at the same time. I had 2 of those and I count myself blessed.
FTN, as unlikely as it is for your restructuring to happen something will eventually have to be done. We shouldn't forget, however, that not all jobs in the Navy are technical in nature. There is a place for knuckle-draggers, particularly on skimmers. I just hope that when the structure does change it's approached with more thought than we put into uniform changes.
OldCOB
It is interesting to read comments from the only one side. As a former Enlisted Nuke, who made the transition to being an officer, I know both sides of the fence. There are some very different skills in being either Enlisted or an Officer, just like there are some different skills to being an Electrician or a Mechanic. To say that the Chief can do the job of a JO, when mine can barely do the job as a Chief, gives them a lot of credit that I don't know if they deserve. The Chief should have either made sure that the guys were done so that they did not have to come in or that the guys knew why they were there. The Divo should also be there if all of his guys are there. If he is not that is the fault of the Chief. Any good LPO would have also made sure that the work was completed prior to the weekend and taken the destiny of the division out of the hands of the Divo. The Chief and LPO should be dictating what needs to be done to the Divo and the Divo needs to be ensuring that the Chief and LPO have all of the information necessary to plan out their work.
Navigator (former EM)
I agree, a chief isn't an officer. My point is that if OCS can change a civilian into an officer, it should be even easier for it to change a chief into one. Not every chief has what it takes, but most do. And I think we'd see some really insulting customs, like blue-painted spaces being off limits to enlisted (unless they're cleaning them, of course) if everyone started out as one.
What doesn't work or at least what you haven't accounted for in your proposed scheme is how to maintain technical expertise in the specific areas of divisional or rates.
The current scheme has enlisted rates as the masters of a specific "trade". This comes with advancement corresponding to journeyman to master. the services are training and maintaining system experts in many areas.
for the most part officer career are not meant to develop expertise in anything so specific that they could repair and maintain it...the training and experience is mostly in warfighting (and yes i know this is a huge simplification where many examples to the contrary can be found).
I do think it would be a solid idea to have officers start their career as enlisted. but in actual practice it would be hard to get enough people to agree to do this...there is the reality of getting people to sign up for the Navy. Which again is another flaw in the FTN proposal, how many college graduates are going to want to be seamen? How are you going to provide the time for seamen et al to get degrees while serving? You would also need to develop a very robust and fair way to get access to college courses.
For reference, i was both an enlisted nuc an Academy grad and a nuc again....I even made a patrol on one of the 5 for Freedom before i went to Canoe U.
What requires acollege degree to be an officer? The same "outdated" thinking that says enlisted men couldn't drive the boats.
And many enlisted men have degrees...the division I was in as I retired sported 4 engineering degrees, two of them masters.
Obviously Admiral Boorda thought it could work. He re-institued the Seaman to Admiral program, and it works.
As to officers, I have found that some are good, some are great,and some should be asking if I want fries with that. And it doesn't seem to matter where thay came from...some great ones were Canoe U graduates, others were prior enlisted. Some of the lousy ones had never been near the academy.
I think it has more to do with the character of the man. That is another thing that could be used during this advancement process.
And nothing said you HAD to advance. I was very content turning valves for a living.
You're an idiot.
Joshua, what are you doing?
He is probably trying to make me angry....and it won't work. Some of us like working for a living. I found no issue with staying enlisted. Neither did my LCPO, who had an MSME. There is no shame in being a good enlisted man, and I really got a kick out of doing stuff in the plant.
Didn't always like the crap that went along with it, but that's life. Not everyone can have an idyllic life.
True, but I never miss the chance for a Wargames pun.
:)
Yeah...and it was a good one, too.
There is an Enlisted Commissioning Program. Expand it, and eliminate OCS.
My stepfather was OCS with a psychology degree, worked for NDRC. And took home confiscated weed. I dunno how that fits into the years of tradition.
-3383
As an LPO, I always felt I was just half a notch below the Dept Head in terms of experience and respect. Officers just have different jobs.
I once saw the resolution of a conflict between an Ensign and a Master Chief. The Master Chief graciously accecpted the Ensign's apology. He said, "That's alright, sir. Ensigns are supposed to piss of Master Chiefs."
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